CANADA

Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development

EVIDENCE number 04,
 

 

UNEDITED COPY

Thursday, February 12, 2009

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¿  (0900)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): Good morning.

[Français]

    Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. C'est la quatrième rencontre du Comité permanent des affaires autochtones et du développement du grand Nord.

[English]

    Order of the day, today we have presentations, briefings, for the first hour from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development regarding the Indian residential schools section of the department. Starting at 10 o'clock we'll be receiving a briefing on the truth and reconciliation commission. We have two independent hours. We'll proceed through a first round for each.

    We have with us this morning for the first hour Caroline Davis, assistant deputy minister for the resolution and individual affairs sector, Paul Vickery, who is acting director policy, and Linda Barber, director general policy and partnerships.

    Ms. Davis will continue. We usually look to 10 minutes, followed by questions from members. Carry on.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis (Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development): Thank you.

    Good morning.

    I'd like to thank the chair and members of the committee for inviting us here today to talk about Indian residential schools and the work that the government is doing to attempt to resolve the sad legacy that the schools have left behind.

[Français]

    Je commencerai par un préambule dans lequel je brosserai un bref historique. Je parlerai ensuite des principaux éléments de la Convention des règlements relative aux pensionnats indiens.

[English]

    If I could correct the record, sir, I have Paul Vickery, who is senior general counsel of the Department of Justice. Linda Barber, who is director general policy partnerships and communications, and Patricia Power, who is acting director of policy and strategic planning.

    The three of us are with resolution and individual affairs sector of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, and Paul is with the Department of Justice.

    Following Confederation in 1867, the Government of Canada began to play a role in the development and administration of Indian residential schools. By the 1920s, the government had assumed control of the Indian residential schools operations, of which there were about 132 schools over time situated in 7 out of 10 provinces and all 3 territories. In many cases the government operated the schools in partnership with religious organizations and often employees of the government, including Indian agents and the RCMP, compelled attendance at the schools.

    Aside from education, one of the stated intents of the Indian residential schools policy was to assimilate the children into the dominant culture. The policy resulted in over 150,000 children being removed from their homes and raised in isolation, away from the influence and comfort of their families, communities, traditions and cultures. Conditions in the school were often harsh, and in some cases even abusive.

    While most Indian residential schools ceased to operate by the mid-1970s, the last federally-run school in Canada closed in 1996.

    On May 30, 2005, the Government of Canada appointed former Supreme Court Justice, the Honourable Frank lacobucci, as the government's representative. His mandate was to lead discussions with legal counsel for former students, the Assembly of First Nations, and church entities toward a fair and lasting resolution of the legacy of Indian residential schools. These discussions culminated in the Indian Residential Schools Agreement, which was signed by all parties and approved by the government on May 10, 2006.

    All nine jurisdictional courts approved the agreement, and it would become the largest class action settlement in Canadian history.

    The agreement includes five components:

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[Français]

    Le paiement d'expérience commune, CPEC, prévoit le paiement d'une somme forfaitaire en reconnaissance de l'expérience vécue par les anciens élèves qui ont été retirés de la famille, de la communauté, et soustraits à leurs soins. Ce paiement augmente progressivement selon la période de temps passée dans un pensionnat. Un fonds en fiducie de 1,9 milliard de dollars a été établi au titre de PS7.

[English]

    

    The independent assessment process provides additional individual compensation for physical and sexual abuse under an alternative dispute resolution model. Awards range from $5,000 to $430,000.

    Measures to support healing include a $125 million endowment to the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and a Health Canada support program of $95 million over five years, which offers counselling and emotional support.

    Twenty million dollars will be used to fund commemoration initiatives.

    The last major component is the establishment of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, with a budget of $60 million.

    If I could, I'll talk briefly about progress to date. Implementation of the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement commenced on September 19, 2007.

    In collaboration with Service Canada, 97,000 applications for common experience payments have been received for review by our office. Seventy-two thousand have been approved for payment, and cheques have been sent out amounting to $1.48 billion, which is an average of $20,500 per claimant. We have an extensive research team, with access to a computer assisted research system, and they prepare careful decisions on each individual application.

    To date, 20,000 people have been found to be ineligible, either because their school is not on the agreed upon list, because they were day school students, or because we were unable to find records of their attendance.

    The government is making every effort to ensure former students receive the compensation for which they are eligible, including a reconsideration process. Twenty-two thousand people have applied for reconsideration, and we have completed 9,000 reviews. Assessment of applications is intended to confirm eligibility, not to reduce it.

    In addition, applicants can appeal directly to the National Administration Committee in the event that their request for reconsideration has been denied, in whole or in part. The National Administration Committee oversees the implementation of the agreement on behalf of the courts. There have been 1,100 appeals made to date.

[Français]

    Conscient des répercussions que la mise en oeuvre de la convention de règlement est appelée à avoir, le gouvernement du Canada a constitué un groupe de travail sur les répercussions communautaires au début de l'année 2006. Ce groupe a l'ordre d'assurer la coordination et d'informer les communautés autochtones et les anciens élèves à propos des éléments individuels et collectifs que renferme la convention de règlement. La prochaine séance du comité est prévue en mars.

[English]

    A national Indian residential schools crisis line has been set up to provide support for former residential school students. The crisis line is staffed by trained counsellors who are available to answer calls from former students and their families, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The phone number for the crisis line is 1-866-925-4419.

    Should former students or their family members require additional support, they are referred to Health Canada's Resolution Health Support Program , which was developed to support former students and their families through the implementation of the agreement.

    At implementation date, the agreement included an agreed upon list of 130 institutions. All decisions on requests for the addition of institutions to the schools list are guided by Article 12 of the agreement.

    The criteria for adding an institution to the list are a) the child was placed in a residence away from the family home by or under the authority of Canada for the purposes of education; and, b) Canada was jointly or solely responsible for the operation of the residence and care of the children resident there.

    Ta date, the department has received over 8,500 requests to add approximately 1,250 institutions to the agreement. Two schools have been added to the list and we continue to process approximately 15 requests per month.

    A word about the apology.

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[Français]

    Le 11 juin 2008, le premier ministre du Canada a pris la parole à la Chambre des communes afin d'adresser, au nom de tous les Canadiens, des excuses complètes aux anciens élèves des pensionnats indiens. Par la suite, chaque chef des partis d'opposition a aussi formulé des excuses.

[English]

    Present on the floor of the House were the leaders of the national aboriginal organizations, who also addressed the House in acceptance of the apology. The event was transmitted to a crowd of several thousand who gathered on Parliament Hill, and broadcast across the nation. Survivors of the residential schools watched with anticipation from coast to coast to coast.

    The apology garnered international attention. In November 2008 Canada was given an award in Washington, D.C. for the apology by the Search for Common Grounds, which is an internationally renowned organization respected for working with local partners to address conflicts constructively.

    The truth and reconciliation committee, or TRC, is the cornerstone of the agreement. The commission will be a positive step in forging a new relationship between aboriginal people and other Canadians. As you most likely know, the TRC has experienced some challenges with the resignation of its chairman and the resignation of two commissioners, which will be effective on June 1, 2009.

    The enlistment of Justice Frank Iacobucci to oversee the selection of the new commissioners gives us confidence that the process will be underway soon for the sake of survivors and their families. In the interim, the secretariat has continued to lay the groundwork for the seven national events that are part of the settlement agreement.

    Canada has supported this establishment of the TRC. I would like to stress, however, that the assistance Canada has provided to the TRC is strictly related to the operational and administrative set-up. We will continue to be available to the TRC in this regard. The Government of Canada has ensured that the TRC can conduct its important work with complete autonomy.

    Getting underway sooner rather than later is indeed critical to regaining the trust and confidence of the survivors, their families, and communities. As I'm certain you can appreciate, they have been waiting for some time to have their opportunity to speak to their individual and collective experiences. Of equal importance, we believe that Canada has also waited for a long time to hear this part of our collective history.

    We have high hopes for the TRC and its role in fulfilling the renewal of the relationship with aboriginal people in Canada. Thank you.

    

The Chair: Merci, Ms. Davis.

[Français]

    Nous allons procéder aux questions des députés.

    Monsieur Russell.

[English]

   

 Mr. Todd Russell (Labrador, Lib.): Good morning, Ms. Davis, and to our other witnesses. We thank you for coming here and sharing this briefing with us. Of course, you and I and all Canadians know how important this particular file is for individuals, their families, and their communities.

    I want to pick up on a couple of points, first of all, on the addition of schools. There were many people who felt left out of the initial agreement, many of them have expressed this to me personally and shared their stories of hurt and pain, and want to reconcile as well, individually and collectively.

    You say you've added two schools. Can you tell us which two schools those are?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, I can. St. Paul's Hostel in the Yukon and Anahim Lake Dormitory in BC were the two that were added.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Okay. As you know, there have been a number of requests from Labrador to add maybe three or four institutions. They have all been rejected based on the criteria set out in the Indian residential schools agreement, or that is the assumption.

    In the last campaign the Conservative government said a re-elected Conservative government will also commit to pursuing bilateral agreements with the provinces to address the wrongs of the residential schools era for aboriginals attending similar schools not covered by the Indian residential schools settlement agreement. They were re-elected, unfortunately.

    Has this direction gone to the department? Has the department taken up any of that type of process at all?

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 Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, the minister has begun discussions with some of his colleagues. I heard very brief reports back from those discussions and they will be continuing. If I could perhaps add that the government has signed a protocol with the Métis, which also has this as a subject for discussion between the Métis and the government.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Yes, because Île-a-la-Crosse was one of those schools that was given a formal commitment but still hasn't been added to the list, as I understand it.

   

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, that's right.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Can you tell me if the minister has had any discussions with the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: I'm not aware of that, sir, I'm sorry. We can get the answer to you on that.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Okay. Well, I appreciate that. I would also want to pick up on the matter of the apologies. We kick around that word, reconciliation, a lot. Different people have different concepts of what reconciliation means. Certainly the TRC is going to form part of that for people in their own individual contexts.

    However, if we're talking about reconciliation in a really substantive and formative way, has the department made any fundamental changes in terms of its legislative or policy approaches to give some substance to the apology? It's one thing to have the apology and have it accepted, and it was a historic event, but are we doing something beyond the apology outside of just the TRC? Is the department undertaking any substantive actions internally to address how it does business with aboriginal people?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, the department has a couple of things in play. One is that we had a reorganization this summer and a sector has been given responsibility for developing partnerships with aboriginal people. I think that the record would speak for itself in that we do continue to deliver real, measurable and tangible results for aboriginal people. We're moving forward on a number of key initiatives including housing, which was included in the budget that was tabled recently, water quality, education and child and family services. We have also moved forward on settling specific claims and delivering protection for on-reserve human rights. I do believe that reconciliation is at the heart of the methods that we're using to move forward.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:I just want to use a specific example: MRP, matrimonial real property. If we're talking about a formative change and the duty to consult, wouldn't it be incumbent upon the government to sit down in a real consultative way prior to the drafting of the legislation that affects individual and collective rights, in this case on-reserve, as it did with the Specific Claims Tribunal Act? Wouldn't that be sort of a tangible move to a different way of doing business with aboriginal people? I use that as an example. There could be other examples out there.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: The matrimonial real property legislation does address a very difficult gap that exists between the rights that people have living off-reserve and the ones on-reserve with regards to marital and relationship breakdowns. The government regards this as being a very serious issue and it's reintroduced the legislation just recently. There was a lot of consultation. There was a group discussion led by a first nations person in the run-up to the preparation of the legislation. I think the reintroduction does underline the government's commitment to resolving this.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Well, I would argue that. The groups and individuals I have met with, and I don't want to move off too much in that direction, have substantive issues with that particular piece of legislation. They argue that the government hasn't been consultative when it comes to development of that piece of legislation.

    

The Chair: Mr. Russell, we should try and keep it on topic here. We have officials here from the resolutions section. I'm prepared to give a wide berth here in terms of discussion, but we do need to keep it on topic as well.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:I'm taking a wide berth, but please don't take up my time.

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The Chair: Of course not.

   

Mr. Todd Russell:I would also ask, on the independent assessment process, where are we with that particular process in terms of the number of claims that have been resolved and the number that remain outstanding?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Just give me a second here. By the middle of January, we'd received 9,361 claims and the number of decisions rendered is 1,503. So far, if you're interested, the compensation awarded is about $94 million.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Proportionally, of course, to common experience, payments are probably much easier to deal with. However, these claims are much more complex. Physical and sexual abuse and things of that nature. Do you feel good about the process and the speed of the settlement of these claims or do you feel that more needs to be done? It seems there's only a small portion of them that have been settled.

   

Ms. Caroline Davis: If I could perhaps add--I don't think I made this clear in my notes at the beginning--the independent assessment process is run separately from myself. I'm not responsible for it. The gentleman who runs it reports directly to the deputy minister.

    But I have been speaking with him because clearly we are very much involved in the process, in that the research that Canada presents to this adjudication process is key to the determination. So we are looking at ways to make the process more efficient, to try and find ways to have the hearings run in a more effective way that responds to the needs of survivors and to make sure that we speed up the presentation of our information.

    My colleague has told me that he is gearing up to increase the number of hearings that are going to be happening each month as we go into next month and the following fiscal year. So I hope you will see improvements in that.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

    

The Chair: We are out of time. I allowed you a bit of extra time there, Mr. Russell, just to finish up.

[Français]

    Nous allons poursuivre.

    Monsieur Lévesque.

    

M. Yvon Lévesque (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ): Je partagerai mon temps avec mon collègue, Marc.

    Madame Davis, pourriez-vous nous dire, suite au regret manifesté par le premier ministre, de quelle manière la Commission a pu modifier son approche dans le règlement?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We regarded the apology as being very key to the moving forward of all our operations and we do take it very seriously in everything we do.

    I think reconciliation operates at very many different levels. It operates at a societal level in the sense of the relations between the rest of Canada and aboriginal people, but where we're more concerned is the relations between the survivors that we are trying to assist and to provide the payments to and ourselves, and the amount of support that is available to them.

    I mentioned the crisis line. We have survivors who are in quite fragile mental states and the process of reconciliation for them does involve health counselling to attempt to get at the causes of their mental fragility in terms of the abuse that they suffered when they were young. Health Canada has a network of regional health support workers that go into communities, work with individual people and communities. So I think reconciliation is at the heart of that work that we're doing.

[Français]

    

M. Yvon Lévesque: Justement, on a entendu dire que, dans des traitements, des retenues étaient faites sur les paiements pour ces soins. De quelle manière entendez-vous remédier à ces montants qui sont retenus?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: The emphasis that we put in the first set of operations on the common experience payment was to get the payments moving as quickly as we could, so the second level, the reconsideration, we'll go back and, for instance, find people where they claimed for maybe seven or eight years. We had records only for five. We'll do a reconsideration process that will give them the benefit of the doubt and if we've lost records, that really is not their fault, it's ours, and so we will be trying to respond to the needs in that way.

[Français]

    

M. Yvon Lévesque: On sait que des personnes sont beaucoup plus vieilles que d'autres et que d'autres sont très malades. Une mesure spécifique a-t-elle été mise de l'avant pour les retracer le plus rapidement possible?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, very definitely. I mentioned the health support workers. We try to make sure that we are responding quickly in cases where people fall ill and are in desperate need of the payments. So we do try to provide some care at that level as well.

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[Français]

    

M. Yvon Lévesque: Merci, madame.

    

M. Marc Lemay (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ): Combien de temps reste-t-il?

[English]

    

The Chair: Quatre minutes.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: D'accord.

    Madame Davis, j'ai une question.

    Dans mon comté, il y a eu un pensionnat, à Saint-Marc. Saint-Marc était, à cette période, une très petite communauté, un petit village. Voici la question que je me pose. Pourquoi les étudiants de jour ne peuvent-ils pas être admissibles à ce programme? Dans certaines communautés — et je parle, entre autres, de Saint-Marc, où c'est vraiment particulier — beaucoup d'autochtones partaient de la réserve — qui est à 12 km — le matin, s'en allaient à Saint-Marc et revenaient tard le soir quand les parents venaient les chercher. Ils auraient droit de faire réclamation, dans au moins deux des cas, car au moins deux personnes sont venus me consulter à ce sujet à mon bureau. J'ai promis de poser la question. Pouvez-vous me donner une réponse? Est-ce prévu dans la loi? Je ne l'ai pas vu. J'ai peut-être mal lu. Est-ce prévu que les étudiants de jour sont exclus spécifiquement?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis:

    The agreement is the other way around, it specifically includes people who stayed at residential schools, who boarded at the schools. The common experience payment goes to the people who were really taken from their families, who couldn't go home in the evening and as a result suffered greatly.

    We have not made provision for people who were at day schools.

[Français]

    

Mr. Marc Lemay: Vingt milles ont été exclus, mais au moins plusieurs centaines pouvaient retourner chez eux le soir. Est-ce possible de revoir cette entente? Il faudrait que les parties la revoient. Ils ont vécu des choses. Les exemples et les images qui me viennent, c'est qu'ils entraient chez eux tard le soir. Dans la journée, et surtout après l'école — appelons-le comme on voudra —, des choses se passaient entre le moment où les parents venaient les chercher et le moment où ils entraient chez eux. Y a-t-il moyen de faire des exceptions? Faudra-t-il trouver une façon de voir cela? Je parle de cas exceptionnels. C'est documenté. Ils ont vraiment été dans ce pensionnat, mais ils ne pouvaient pas y coucher, parce que la réserve où ils demeuraient était à 12 km.

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: I've asked Mr. Vickery if he can assist with this question.

    

Mr. Paul Vickery (Director and Senior General Counsel , Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development): I think that during the course of the negotiation of the agreement, the issue of day students was specifically addressed. All of the parties around the table during the negotiations led by the hon. Frank Iacobucci had the opportunity of raising questions in relation to whether particular groups should be included.

    No agreement, of course, is necessarily perfect. The thrust of the discussion that led to the agreement was focused on dealing with the common experience of those who were taken from their families and compelled to live in an institutional setting. That was the thrust of the agreement, and that is why the key criteria for compensation under the common experience payment is that the individual has undergone the common experience of an institutionalized setting in which that person lived.

    There is, of course, under the independent assessment process, if there are claims of abuse of either a physical or sexual nature, then a day student would of course be eligible for that process.

    

The Chair: Now let's go to Ms. Crowder, seven minutes.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder (Nanaimo—Cowichan, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for coming before the committee today.

    I just want to follow-up on the day student question. In some cases, some students were actually put into foster homes because there were no actual 24-hour beds available in residential schools. They attended residential schools as day students but were returned to the foster care homes.

    So, in effect, they were removed from their homes and often placed in culturally inappropriate homes. Why are they not considered in this process?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Again, they could make an appeal to the national administration committee that does include representatives of survivors . That issue could be discussed there.

¿  (0930)  

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: It's not being reconsidered, though, in terms of this particular common experience payment?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: No, not in terms of—

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: You've indicated that 20,000 people are ineligible and that so far 9,000 have completed reviews. We've had many complaints about the length of the reviews. In fact I've got a case here. The request was received by the CEP in April 2008. That person received a letter dated June 26, 2008. As of yesterday, they had inquired about the application still in process and were advised there is no timeframe that has been set for reconsiderations.

    We were just asked to check back periodically. Now these are often elderly claimants, and you're asking them to go through a reconsideration process that is now going into almost a year. What are the timeframes that are in place, particularly when you're talking about 9,000 reviews?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We are putting a focus on this now. Having gone through the first round of the common experience payments, the resources for research are now being devoted to the second and third stages.

    I hope we will see an increase in the speed with which we're dealing with reconsiderations.

    If I could add, if there is somebody particular who you feel needs to have a quick resolution to their claim because of their state of health or their age, you could certainly let me know that.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: We would contact you directly?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: You could indeed contact me directly.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Is the department planning to put in place speed of service guidelines around processing the reviews? Many of the departments, for example HRSDC, do have guidelines in place for processing appeals.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We do try to aim towards a 60-day turnaround on reconsideration. Then if there's further information that the claimant needs to provide us, there's 100 days on that.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Sixty days. So in this particular case that I'm talking about—

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: It's well exceeded that, already.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: And we do have numbers of cases that are in that—

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Perhaps you could, as I said, pass me the list.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Just in that light, is there an MP contact for when we have questions around CEP?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: There is the CEP line. There is a service line.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: An MP contact?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We haven't set that up specifically. If it's the wish of the committee, we could certainly look at that. In the meantime I would suggest that you give my office a call.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Just in terms of the schools, you've indicated that two schools have been accepted under the agreement. Is there a possibility of providing us with a list of all the schools that

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We do have one here with us that we could leave with the committee. It's the original list. We could also provide one that's been updated to reflect the additional two. The information is on the Internet, as well.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: The list of all the schools that have applied? Okay. We can access it off the Internet.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: The list on the website has been updated as far as November 14, 2008. When we go back, we'll make sure it's up to date, to today.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Just in terms when you have 1,200 schools, what's the process for looking at adding those schools or denying those schools? You've outlined the three criteria, is that the only criteria that is used?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, they are. We do have a lot of research that was done actually before the government entered into the agreement. There is a lot of research available on a large number of schools. We can go through that. We discuss carefully and apply the two-part test before we take the decisions.

    Then when a decision is made, there is a detailed explanation of the documents that we've looked at and the kinds of things that we read in the documents that support the decision. We make that available to the people who've applied.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: In the appeal process?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Sorry?

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: In the appeal process? For the school?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Well, yes. The appeal for a school could come either from the claimants themselves who could go to the court or the national administrative committee could take the case and go to court.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: In terms of the independent process, I'm sorry, the IAP process, we've heard from quite a number of people that it seems in their view that their claims are rejected for what seem to them to be minor reasons. For example, we've had some people say that as a six-year-old they couldn't remember the name of the teacher who abused them and that was the reason that their claim was rejected. They're now in their sixties and seventies so I think it's not unreasonable that they couldn't remember the name of their teacher at six.

    What kinds of reasons are we seeing for rejection of those claims? That seemed a fairly simple reason.

¿  (0935)  

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, it does. Speaking for my colleague again, here, there is a very thorough research process that goes on. I think, if I could, with all due respect, the people who go to these hearings are very often, as I've mentioned already, in a fragile mental state--

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Well, they're traumatized. They're traumatized all over again.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: They're traumatized and they get traumatized all over again. So their recollection of the process that they go through and the kinds of reasons that we give could be difficult for them to take in.

    So again I think this is where it's very, very important that if you hear about one of these that you would encourage them to work with their health support worker and to try and work through this.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Well, I don't know what the accessibility is in many remote communities to health support workers and when I hear about a crisis line, the reality is many communities simply don't have telephones. So providing them with an option of a crisis line to deal with not only their own trauma but intergenerational trauma...a crisis line in many ways simply is not culturally appropriate. It doesn't provide support on the ground in the community and if that's what's being offered to people in terms of--

    

The Chair: You're out of time, Ms. Crowder.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: I am just hoping the department will look at some other options.

    

The Chair: We'll leave it at that. Thank you.

    We'll proceed to Mr. Rickford, and I understand you'll be splitting your time with Mr. Albrecht, or whatever you choose.

    Please, go ahead.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford (Kenora, CPC): Okay, I understand that. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Oui, c'est clair comme l'eau de roche.

    Thank you for coming here today. It's nice to see some familiar faces. I have two questions. One deals with the Indian residential school process and then the other one is just a comment on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission as a sort of pre-emptive comment on what we'll be hearing later on today.

    First, was there any exercise or initiative to prepare or respond and provide support for folks who got payments, either through common experience or the IAP? For example, to safeguard against certain kinds of exploitation, etc? Was there anything done in that regard?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes, there was. There is the community impacts working group which did discuss, as you said, the possibilities of adverse impacts. For instance, we worked with band administrators to make sure that information was available on how to make a will, how to manage an estate, because for the first time people would have substantial amounts of money to leave potentially.

    So we are going to be reinvigorating this community impacts working group because there have been some stories in the press that have been disturbing recently and we would like to try, again, as far as we can, to work with communities to prevent those kinds of things.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: I think that's critical so I appreciate that response.

    The second piece I want to go over is this. I understand that in order for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to have any success, it has to act autonomously from the department, but I do understand that the department provided some services in kind. I think you mentioned the operational administrative setup of the TRC. Could you comment on what those operational administrative things were and briefly comment if you can or will on the role of the church or churches and whether any deference was given to the traditional element of this in helping administer the TRC?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: I can comment from the point of view of the government, perhaps not so much from the point of view of the churches.

    Government has, as you know, certain accountability requirements that have to be met. My colleague, who'll be before you just in a few minutes, is the acting executive director to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We have been supporting her as far as we possibly can, in terms of providing systems and qualified people who can administer government programs, so experts in finance program management, that kind of thing. The aim of all that has been to ensure that they can meet the requirements of the Financial Administration Act.

    For the churches, I don't think I can really add anything there, sorry. It will be really for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to get up and running and find the support that it needs where it can find it.

¿  (0940)  

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: Okay.

    Thank you.

    

The Chair: Halfway through, so we're going to go to Mr. Clarke, then.

    

Mr. Rob Clarke (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Thank you for coming today.

    Residential Schools Canada, I'm very interested in this. My mother, my grandparents, aunts and uncles all attended residential school, so it was very dear to me. We look at the residential schools as being negative, but there was also good times in the schools. From what I was told from my elders, we got an education. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for an education.

    But the question I have is—and forgive me if I'm not clear—in order for the students and the children to go, there's some wording in there in regards to parenting in residential school in the agreement.

    Do you by chance have that wording for the criteria for the schools to be acting as a parent? Parental relationship, sorry.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes. I referred it in my speech. Would you like me to run through that again or...?

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: Just under section 12, part of the 12 there. It's the parental role, because this has a really big impact for schools and being selected.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes.

    I think it reflects the fact that at a residential school children are in the care of members of the religious order, for instance, that runs it or the teachers that run it, as opposed to their parents, and the intergenerational impacts of that, of course, are quite severe, in that when children grow up in a loving and kindly atmosphere, they tend to treat their own children that way. So it's the loss of parenting skills that came from attendance at residential schools that we've been trying to address.

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: When the students are in the residential school, the schools were a parent, is that correct, actually a parenting role?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Well, they were in loco parentis, yes.

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: How is the language selected

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: The language in the school?

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: —and as interpreted now?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Yes.

    Well, the language of the agreement was negotiated between the parties.

    Do you want to comment on this, Paul?

    

Mr. Paul Vickery (Director and Senior General Counsel , Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development): Yes.

    Certainly the specific language of the settlement agreement was the subject of extensive discussion over quite an extended period of time and there was a variety of viewpoints put forward. The ultimate language was arrived at by consensus.

    

The Chair: You've still got 20 seconds. If you wanted to have a quick one, that would be fine.

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: Now, that language with Residential School Canada is that through interpretation for each case-to-case or is that...?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Well, we certainly work within the terms of the agreement, but, as I said, to try and put the benefit of the doubt in favour of the applicants.

    

Mr. Rob Clarke: So the article there is basically through interpretation?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Well, there is interpretation, there's a growing interpretation as we go through the appeals, and the information that we're getting from that will be precedential.

    

The Chair: Thank you very much.

    I appreciate the members sticking to the timelines tightly. I know we're dealing with a tight timeline here.

    That's sort of a lead-in to the fact that our next round we're going to try and keep to three minutes, if we can. We've got 15 minutes left with the officials here on this particular subject.

    Let's proceed to Madam Folco, three minutes.

[Français]

    

Mme Raymonde Folco (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.): Merci, monsieur le président.

    S'il me reste du temps, je voudrais le partager avec mon collègue, M. Russell.

    Madame Davis, d'abord je vais m'excuser de mon retard, mais cela n'enlève rien à l'importance de la question.

    Sur la question de la commission, on peut supposer qu'il est important qu'elle soit totalement indépendante des actions ainsi de suite du gouvernement, quel que soit le gouvernement en place. Je n'ai pas besoin de réponse. La réponse semble assez évidente. Dans l'affirmative, quels gestes ont été posés pour s'assurer que le secrétariat et les commissaires sont libres de toutes interférences gouvernementales?

    J'ai une deuxième question à vous poser. Je m'excuser d'y aller rapidement, mais je n'ai que trois minutes.

    Quelle protection a été apportée pour s'assurer que le processus d'évaluation est indépendant de toutes interférences gouvernementales?

¿  (0945)  

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: With regards to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission I could perhaps refer to the supplementary estimates that were tabled at committee. What they did was quite unusual in government terms. They have allocated the budget for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the five years that it will be operating as an entire amount. Usually you will see in the estimates that for instance a five year program would be divided into five parts in the estimates. The money that's been approved for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission will be rolling over from year to year and the government has given approval for the roll over. So I would argue the budgetary restraint on it I would argue is considerably less than would be for somebody like myself.

    With regards to the independent assessment process on abuse cases I believe is what you were referring to the adjudicators are selected and are independent of government so that the process of reviewing with individual claimants acts outside of public service employees. We only get involved when the claim has been decided and it becomes a question of payment. So that process is independent.

    

Ms. Raymonde Folco: The other questions are for my colleague.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:I want to go back to the independent assessment process. You said there were 9,361 claims received. How many do you anticipate receiving, or does the government have a number? There are some reports as high as 14,000 to 18,000 potential claims. Was there a projection when the agreement was done up of how many claims they would receive?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: We're estimating at about 12,000. Obviously as history continues that estimate is quite soft.

    

Mr. Todd Russell:So it could go much higher.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: It could do yes.

    

The Chair: That's it unfortunately, Mr. Russell, thank you very much and Madame Folco.

    We're going to Mr. Albrecht for three minutes.

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht (Kitchener—Conestoga, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I just want to say how important it is to me having been present the day that the apology was delivered, and also on that day having the opportunity to speak to many of the residential school survivors and to feel the sense of hope for renewed relationships. I think that's significant. I hope that we don't loose sight of the big picture in all of this. I think today we're struggling with some of the logistics of getting the hard work done now. I certainly want to follow-up on the concerns that Mr. Rickford mentioned earlier of trying to mitigate the risks of having this money become actually a negative in the lives of anyone, aboriginal or non-aboriginal. I'm glad to hear that you indicated there are some measures in place to help that.

    Now the one question I had you said the average common experience payment is $20,500 and then the independent assessment process range from $5,000 to $430,000. Would that be in addition to the common experience or would that be separate?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: That's an addition. It's in cases of specific abuse. The common experience payment went to everyone who was at a residential school and as I said only some of them actually suffered specific cases of sexual or physical abuse.

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: Thank you.

    Would you be able to just flush out a little for us? On page 4 of your comments you outlined a number of the initiatives that are in place to help aboriginal people, the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. We obviously later will want to talk about the Reconciliation Commission. The $125 million endowment to the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and the Health Canada support program of $95 million over 5 years that's a significant investment. Could you maybe just give us a bird's-eye view of how that money will be allocated and what different programs are in place within those foundations to get that work done?

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: It's difficult to speak to the Aboriginal Healing Foundation because it is an independent one. They have prepared a number of volumes of summaries of impacts that the residential school system had that I feel form part of a very important historical record and they are also working with communities on individual projects to promote healing. It might be interesting for you to read their annual report.

¿  (0950)  

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: I have looked at in previous years. I haven't recently. I guess the question I'm trying to get at, if I have another three seconds, is any of their work preventative in nature, especially considering this new layer that's been placed onto all of us now with the common experience payment and the independent assessment program.

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: I'm not sure I can specifically answer on behalf of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, but if I could, we do have a program which provides public information to communities and works with them on the impacts and we will be carrying forward funding for that into the next fiscal year, so there would be some scope for working with communities to try to mitigate some of these potential impacts.

    

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Albrecht, and now we'll go to the Bloc.

    Monsieur Lemay, trois minutes.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Madame Davis, il y a une chose qui m'apparaît essentielle. Je le cherchais dans votre discours, mais je vais le redire dans mes mots. Dans votre introduction, il ne faudrait perdre de vue — et je vous assure que tous les membres ici ne font pas de politique avec ce dossier — qu'il faut absolument que l'argent aille aux Autochtones. Je pense que votre mandat est clair. Cela m'apparaît essentiel et important de vous le rappeler. Je pense que je n'ai même pas besoin de vous le rappeler, vous m'apparaissez très sensible. Il faut tout faire pour que les Autochtones puissent recevoir ce à quoi ils ont droit. On ne pourra jamais — j'en ai dans mon comté plusieurs qui ont vécu des choses affreuses au pensionnat — les remettre dans l'état où ils étaient, mais au moins si on peut les aider de cette façon. Au moins, que les sommes aillent à ces personnes.

    On sait que les communautés religieuses vont verser 100 millions de dollars. Comment allez-vous vous assurer — parce que c'est écrit dans le rapport sur le rendement pour la période se terminant le 31 mars — que ces sommes de 100 millions de dollars et plus pourront être versées et aller à la Fondation autochtone de guérison?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: You're reoffering to the money that the church is providing in services and kind. We will be doing an evaluation of the whole settlement agreement and we are in discussions with the church groups continually, so I think we can give you some assurance that indeed the church groups regard this with the amount of seriousness that you do and that we all do, in fact. So I'm very hopeful on that.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: La Fondation autochtone de guérison est extrêmement importante dans tout ce processus. Va-t-elle bien? Fonctionne-t-elle bien? Les 125 millions de dollars versés aident-ils les Autochtones à passer au travers de ces événements traumatisants?

[English]

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Certainly. From what I've read in their annual reports and the documents that they have sent out, I would say that it's been a very positive influence in this area.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Merci.

[English]

    

The Chair: Mr. Lemay, you still have thirty seconds if you wish, Mr. Lemay.

    

M. Marc Lemay: I'm going to give that time to Madam or Monsieur.

[Français]

    Oui, pourvu qu'il ne fasse pas de politique avec.

[English]

    

Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, CPC): Merci, Monsieur Lemay.

    I have residential schools in my area, or had, and family members who were in residential schools. The apology cannot be underestimated because I've seen the impact it's had on individuals, on individuals who wouldn't speak about their experience with their own family members until such time as that apology kind of broke things open. We have individuals who actually talked about the good experience they had in the school. They could be with a brother or sister in the very same school, but they had exactly the opposite experience. This has been a very emotional time for many people, but it has been good in that it's brought process to the exercise and I think it's brought families back together that were driven apart.

    I would like to ask a little more on the Health Canada support program of $95 million over five years. I realize we don't have Health Canada here, but do you have any idea what the expectation is that the money would be used for?

    We had the comment from Jean Crowder from the NDP that the crisis line doesn't always work. I'm quite sure she's correct on that matter, but there are other provisions that you have referenced in your talk.

¿  (0955)  

    

Ms. Caroline Davis: Perhaps I could mention this from my own personal point of view. I was in Edmonton yesterday and happened to cross a meeting of the Director of the Alberta Regional Health Support Workers with her workers.The majority of the workers are aboriginal themselves and so they're able to provide a culturally appropriate service. They do indeed work directly in the communities. They provide counselling, and they work with the elders so that the elders can provide further support. They also provide transportation to counselling sessions, or work with people who are in need of further counselling to deal with their traumas.

    I was extremely impressed having met with these people. There were about 25 of them there. I was very impressed with their level of dedication and, indeed, their ability to deal with people who might be suicidal, or who might in fact be threatening violence against other people.

    I do believe that the work they're doing is bearing fruit and is going to aid the survivors and the communities.

    

The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Members, we are out of time if we're going to switch over to the next topic. I thank you for your indulgence and patience with the smaller room here today as well.

    Madam Davis, we appreciate your presentation this morning.

    We'll take a brief two-minute break while we switch over and then we'll proceed with the next subject.

    Thank you.

¿    


À    

À  (1000)  

[Français]

    

Le président: Mesdames, Messieurs, nous recommençons. Le deuxième sujet à l'ordre du jour est la Commission de vérité et de réconciliation.

[English]

    I welcome Madam Aideen Nabigon. We're going to begin with your presentation for 10 minutes. In the course of that you can introduce the guests that are with us today. We'll proceed from there and then, after your presentation, to questions from members.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon (Acting Executive Director, Truth and Reconciliation Commission): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for this opportunity to appear before your committee to discuss the work of the Indian residential schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

    With me here today I have Alia Butt, who is the acting director of policy, and Matt Garrow, the acting director of corporate services.

    I've been the acting executive director of the truth and reconciliation secretariat since September 2008. The secretariat is a new government department that supports the work of the commission. The commission, which is comprised of a chair and two commissioners appointed by orders in council, is independent. The executive director reports to the commission on mandated activities and to the minister for the purpose of reporting to Parliament on how the TRC has spent the money allocated to it under the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement.

    By way of background, I've spent my Public Service career dedicated to aboriginal issues and in recent years I've been actively involved in Indian residential schools issues for three separate government departments.

    I'd like to provide an overview of the TRC, including the work of the commission since it was established on June 1, 2008 and the work it will undertake over the course of its five-year mandate.

    The TRC is one component of the court-approved settlement agreement. Pursuant to the agreement, $60 million was allocated for the creation of the TRC. The commission is said to be the cornerstone of the settlement agreement.

    Canada's TRC is unique from other commissions around the world in that its scope is primarily centred around the mistreatment of children and its focus of research spans more than 100 years, one of the longest durations ever examined. It is also the first court-ordered truth commission to be established. As such, the court plays an ongoing role in the implementation and supervision of the commission. Participation in all TRC activities is voluntary. The TRC process will be inclusive and open to all those who wish to participate. The commission is not a criminal tribunal and will therefore not hold hearings.

    As set out in our mandate, the TRC will do the following: research and examine the conditions that gave rise to the Indian Residential Schools legacy. It will provide an opportunity for those affected, including first nation, Métis and Inuit survivors, their families, communities, the churches and former school employees, the government and the Canadian public to share their experiences about a significant part of Canadian history still unknown to most Canadians. It will create an accurate and public historical record of the past, and in doing so it will help to fill the blank pages of Canada's history. It will contribute to a process of truth, healing and reconciliation. It will be forward-looking and results-orientated in terms of rebuilding and renewing aboriginal relationships and the relationship between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people.

    At the end of our mandate we will have accomplished the following. We will have listened to those whose lives have been deeply affected by the legacy of residential schools. We'll have held seven national events in different regions across Canada to promote awareness and public education about the Indian residential schools system and its impacts. We'll have supported community events across the country and produced a public report which will include recommendations to the parties of the settlement agreement. We'll have supported commemoration initiatives nationally for activities that honour Indian residential school survivors and pay tribute in a lasting manner, and we'll have established a national research centre that will be a lasting resource about the Indian residential schools legacy.

    In terms of the progress that has been made to date, I can advise that the TRC secretariat staff has been working to put in place the essential organizational structure to allow the TRC to implement its various mandate activities, including the development and approval of a Treasury Board submission, the development of an organization chart which has been submitted to the Public Service Commission for approval, and we've initiated processes to meet federal reporting obligations.

    With respect to the TRC mandate, the secretariat has developed a strategic plan and we have developed implementation strategies and work plans. We've also identified legal issues impacting the work of the TRC and obtained advice with respect to statement gathering, legal obligations under federal privacy legislation, and the collection and archiving of documents.

À  (1005)  

    We need to gain back the trust of survivors and restore confidence in the process. Once the new commission has been appointed, we will be in a position to move forward to successfully implement our mandate. In spite of the challenges the commission has faced, we appreciate the patience and understanding of Canadians, particularly survivors of residential schools. We recognize that many survivors are elderly and that we need to move forward as quickly as possible to receive statements from anyone affected by the legacy of residential schools. People will be able to describe their experiences in a safe, respectful, and culturally appropriate manner. A person might share his or her story through a one-on-one interview, in a written statement, or in a group setting.

    Over the course of the next few months, the secretariat will finalize frameworks for national and community events, finalize budget allocations for mandate activities, increase communications and outreach and continue dialogue with parties and survivor organizations, conclude the selection process for members of the Indian Residential Schools Survivor Committee, which is a 10-member committee, the majority of whom will be survivors from across Canada and will serve as an advisory body to the TRC, and will ensure that the voices of survivors are heard and reflected when providing advice and recommendations to the commission. We'll hire regional liaisons and we'll increase our capacity by staffing positions, with a particular priority on hiring aboriginal employees.

    Our focus must be on what is important for survivors and all of Canada. Indian residential schools are a part of our shared history, a history that is not well understood by many. We need to educate Canadians as to why this history is important and what impacts are still being felt as a result of this legacy. That is why the TRC is relevant today and for future generations.

    There has been international interest in the work of the TRC, and the Prime Minister's apology last June further increased its international profile. The TRC must facilitate a process of truth, healing, and provide the foundation for reconciliation. We want to help guide and inspire aboriginal peoples and all Canadians toward a process of reconciliation and renewed relationships based on mutual understanding and respect.

    Mr. Chair, I welcome the input of the members of the committee on ways that we can ensure the success of the TRC. Thank you.

À  (1010)  

[Français]

    

The Chair: Merci beaucoup.

    Maintenant, nous allons procéder aux questions des députés.

    Commençons avec M. Murphy.

    

M. Brian Murphy (Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, Lib.): Merci, monsieur le président.

    Merci aux témoins.

    Merci à tout le monde.

    Je suis nouveau à ce comité.

[English]

    I have a few questions, a couple of them, Ms. Nabigon, you might not be able to or want to respond to, and they are these. We really, really don't know why the commissioners couldn't get along and why Mr. Justice LaForme resigned, but what we do know is that the remaining commissioners are staying on till June 1. With all due respect, when I look at progress made with the TRC, and with great sympathy to you, it must be difficult to have any progress when the highlight of the day seems to be the bickering between commissioners, the over-holding of commissioners who are not going to be there after June 1, and I would say the slowness on the government's side in getting replacements for the commissioners.

    Why I say this must be difficult for you is that there's some urgency, and perhaps you could answer these questions. There is a five-year timeline for your mandate. The way I see it, since June 1 you have set out some strategic planning and a mandate. Once you get an all-new commission, that may well, with input from above-down, change somewhat and you might as well say you're starting from scratch. Is five years enough? How much of the $60 million has been used to date? I understand you have premises, the lease for which may be up in March. What are you going to do about that? You have within the mandate a suggested report period of two years from inception, which I believe was June 2008. So in June 2010, are you going to be in a position--perhaps another six months, I understand--to do a report on the historical findings and recommendations?

    I guess what I'm saying is unless there's some dispatch on this matter from the government and the new commission, clearly, do you think that you can meet the timelines and get done what is expected of you?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Clearly there was conflict within the commission. I wasn't privy to those discussions and we were not part of the discussions headed by Justice Iacobucci to resolve and to find a solution for moving forward.

    With regard to whether there is enough funding and enough time for moving forward, that will be a decision that will have to be made when the new chair and commissioners are appointed.

    As I said, we're doing everything we can to set the foundation to make sure the foundation is in place for the new chair and commissioners when they come on board hopefully by June 1.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Right. What about this two year report? Am I right in reading that in two years you have to do a full report on the historical findings and recommendations?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: With the possibility of a six month extension.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Right.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Do you anticipate asking for the six month extension or advising in your role the commissioners, whoever they may be, for that?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, I would definitely anticipate that we'll be asking for the six month extension and again, whether the commissioners and the new chair come back to the government and ask for an extension down the road on the five years will be up to the new commissioners.

À  (1015)  

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: I think what we perhaps know is that there were personality conflicts, perhaps philosophical conflicts which again we are not all privy to, but really to the people affected that doesn't matter and all of us as parliamentarians, particularly the government, have an obligation to move on this. You're somewhat captive because you don't have a full commission to work with.

    Is there any reason that you can see why the commissioners who are there now are staying until June? It seems an awful long time saying, “I'm done with this. I can't stay but I'll stay till June”. What effective work can be done from now until June from two commissioners who are departing and are not going to be part of the final process?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The commissioners in their public statement last week or the week before have committed to being available to advise on the transition and supporting the new commission in its transition phase and provide support to the secretariat as well.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: But as I understand it, the commission, the three members as they were as of October of last year never met on the substantive issues.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Again, I only started in September I wasn't aware. They were meeting. I wasn't a party to the conflict. As I said, it was clear there was conflict. I wasn't involved with that.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: It is clear that that is all there was because there is no work product that has come out of it. I guess what I'm asking from a let's get it done point of view, which all parliamentarians should join in on, is what is the use in having those commissioners stay until June. Do they come into the office every day?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No, they don't come into the office every day. Again, Mr. Chair, I simply wasn't party to the discussions that led to them staying until June 1.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: How often are they coming in to advise you with respect to the development of the Treasury Board' submission, the development of an organizational chart and to initiate processes, to meet processees and to meet federal reporting obligations? It sounds like work that you're pretty capable of doing on your own frankly.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, the secretariat has been doing all of the work that you've just mentioned. The commissioners are not in the office.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Do you have premises?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, we do.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Is the lease up?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No. We're in right downtown Ottawa at 100 Sparks Street.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Right. Of the $60 million how much was spent?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: To date we have spent $2.4 million.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: And clearly that all on administrative and salaries.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: So by June, nothing will happen until June or later.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Nothing will happen, well, I mean we're doing limited outreach to the extent that we can. I think it's extremely important that we hear from survivors when we can. We won't be making final decisions on the mandate activities. For example, we are anxious to get moving on our first national event. We won't do that until we have a chair in place to approve the date and location.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: So the total up to June your estimate would be how much of the $60 million?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Up until June we're about $3.4 million.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: And that includes the salaries for the commissioners who are serving until June.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: That's it.

    

The Chair: Sorry. That's it, Mr. Murphy and now we'll proceed to Monsieur Lemay.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Madame Nabigon, veuillez croire que je ne vous en veux pas personnellement et que les remarques que je ferai n'iront pas à l'encontre de votre travail. Je n'aurais pas voulu être dans vos souliers depuis septembre. Je ne sais pas ce qui s'est passé au sein de cette commission et je ne sais pas ce qui s'y passe présentement, mais vous avez un grand problème.

    Je relirai la phrase la plus importante de votre texte et j'espère que les gens des deux côtés de la Chambre l'écouteront. Voici ladite phrase: « Nous devons regagner la confiance des survivants et rétablir la confiance envers le processus. » C'est de l'or en barre. Jusqu'à maintenant, la commission perd deux à zéro. Vous n'aurez pas de troisième chance. J'espère que quelqu'un comprendra cela. Dans mon comté, quatre survivants sont décédés au cours de la dernière année. Ce sont donc quatre survivants qui ne pourront témoigner. Il y en a eu 132 au pensionnat.

    Je ferai une autre remarque. Cette commission commence à devenir très centralisée. J'aime parfois la centralisation. Je lisais la phrase suivante: « Au cours des prochains mois, terminer le processus de sélection, embaucher des agents régionaux. » J'appelle cela du red tape. Il faut absolument que la commission se mette à l'oeuvre.

    Sachant que la commission viendra témoigner devant nous, j'ai fait un petit tour chez nous. Personne ne comprend et n'accepte qu'il y ait sept événements nationaux. Tous les Autochtones — et les Algonquins de mon comté — me demandent pourquoi ils ne viennent pas dans nos régions. Mme McDougall a 78 ans; elle ne viendra jamais à Québec ou à Gatineau. Par contre, si vous venez à Senneterre ou à Amos, elle sera présente. Tous les Indiens d'Obedjiwan qui ont été pris de force et amenés à Amos ne viendront jamais à Gatineau. Je vous suggère fortement de revoir ces sept événements nationaux.

    Ce que les veulent les Autochtones, c'est de pouvoir rendre un témoignage dans leur lieu d'appartenance. Je vous suggère de prendre les 132 endroits où il y a eu des pensionnats, d'en choisir quelques-uns et de vous rendre sur place — en région, pas seulement à Montréal, à Gatineau et à Vancouver. Au Québec, les Indiens qui ont vécu en pensionnat vivent pratiquement tous dans le Nord. Ils ne demeurent pas à Montréal. Certains demeurent à Québec, mais il n'y en a pas beaucoup. Je ne comprends pas. Expliquez-moi si vous ferez quelque chose des remarques que nous soulevons.

    Pourquoi y a-t-il eu une mauvaise interprétation des mandats des commissaires? J'ai lu tous les articles concernant les démissions des commissaires et, jusqu'à maintenant, votre commission se porte vraiment mal. Je suis désolé d'être méchant.

    Vous dites que d'ici juin, vous serez capable de changer cette situation pour faire avancer les choses. Pensez-vous que vous en serez capable?

À  (1020)  

[English]

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Thank you for those comments. I certainly understand the frustration coming from communities and survivors.

    I mentioned briefly that in addition to the seven national events which will be held across the country, it's our intention to have them where we're advised to have them. We will be having a survivors' group, a 10-member survivors' group who will advise us on that. The commission will go where survivors want them to go, but in addition to that, we also will be funding community events. We're developing the criteria for those events and it will be available shortly. It will be posted on our website and be made widely available so that communities know how to apply for it.

    The other thing that we'll be doing—and we're working on finalizing hopefully very, very soon, certainly as soon as we have a new commission in place—is statement gathering. We'll be going again wherever we can to communities across the country, starting hopefully with vulnerable elders, survivors. We know survivors are elderly and dying. We want to get their statements before they die, so we'll be out there in the community as soon as we possibly can, talking with survivors. If I could just mention, we'd been working with the Legacy of Hope Foundation,which also is helping us gather those statements.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Votre commission a-t-elle mis la main sur les documents de chacun de ces pensionnats?

    En fait, celui qui me préoccupe beaucoup, c'est celui de Saint-Marc en Abitibi où il y avait presque tous les indiens du Nord du Québec. Eux, dans leur communauté, que ce soit Obedjwan de la nation Attikameks au nord de La Tuque, mais un peu partout, ils ont ce qu'ils appellent « les murs de la honte ». Ils ont des registres des indiens qui sont allés dans ces pensionnats. Ils ont même des photos.

    Des contacts ont-ils été pris avec ces communautés? Ce sont de très petites communautés et je vous avouerais que je suis un peu d'accord avec Mme Crowder que certaines communautés n'ont même pas le téléphone. Ne leur parlez pas d'informatique ou de site internet parce qu'ils ne savent pas ce dont il s'agit. Alors, de quelle façon allons-nous procéder pour les rejoindre? En fait, cette situation existe toujours dans des communautés éloignées.

À  (1025)  

[English]

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: To answer your question about the files, the photos and the records of students, yes, Indian residential schools, Indian Affairs has extensive files on residential schools and according to the settlement agreement they'll help us with those, we'll have access to those. We're working with the churches as well to provide us with their records.

    Again, yes, as far as getting out we know that people are living in remote communities and that they can't come to the central location, so we will go out to where the survivors are.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Encore?

    D'accord.

    

Le président: Madame Crowder, sept minutes.

[English]

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Thank you for coming today. This is a very important issue and you can tell there's a lot of passion around this. I don't need a response, but I just want to echo Monsieur Lemay's comments around the seven national events. This has to be more than a PR exercise. I live on Vancouver Island and I can tell you that if you hold an event in Vancouver, many of the elders will not be willing to come there, some will, some won't. But there has to be some recognition that many of these survivors were taken from their communities and sent somewhere else and they don't want to be told once again that they have to be sent somewhere else. So it's very important that there is a recognition of that.

    A couple of things. I understand that there was a benchmark survey on public awareness of the Indian residential school legacy done that was reported out on July 2008. I wonder how that information is going to be used since it is a benchmark survey to inform the activities of the commission?

    I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and I'd like the answers, so that's one.

    Has there been any consideration given to appointing an Inuit commissioner to the truth and reconciliation process because we've heard fairly consistently that the Inuit have been left out of this conversation?

    With regards to the issue around restoring confidence in the process and I think the trust and confidence in this process has been badly damaged by what happened. Of course, it's outside of your control. I'm sure that you would have preferred to have the commissioners stay in place and work together, but the reality of it is that many people just don't believe that this process is....It's going to be difficult to get it back on the rails. I know there's a Treasury Board submission that's been done, do you know what work went into ensuring that the truth and reconciliation process will remain independent of the government and how that's going to be set up?

    This has been sort of referred to, but in the absence of having a functioning group of commissioners, who does your secretariat report to? Where's your accountability line around this, because you really don't have functioning commissioners? Lastly, are you aware of whether survivors will actually have input into the selection of those new commissioners?

    If you get through those questions in my time, I want to ask you about the selection process for the Indian residential schools survivor committee.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: With regard to the benchmark survey, can I get back to you on that. We'll provide information on the benchmarks--

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Will you provide that in writing to the committee?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Sure, perfect, we will.

    Your second question with regard to appointment of the Inuit commissioner, unfortunately, I can't answer that question. We weren't involved in the previous process leading up to the development of the current process which is the new table that Justice Iacobucci is chairing to find a new chair and commissioner.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: So really what we have to do is have people contact Justice Yacabucci.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: I would suggest that, yes.

    With regard to what work went into ensuring that the commission is independent, the TRC secretariat is set up as a government department, so it reports to the Minister of Indian Affairs, it reports to Parliament through the Minister of Indian Affairs but the relationship is very much for the sake of reporting to you to Parliament. I don't have a relationship directly with the minister.

À  (1030)  

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Sorry. I just want to clarify. So the secretariat, the reporting relationship is to INAC.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Only for the sake of reporting to Parliament.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Only for the sake of reporting to Parliament. So outside of that parliamentary reporting process who do you report to?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: To the commission.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: To the commission. Just out of curiosity, since there is this relationship with INAC for reporting, did INAC staff roll over into the commission?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Or into the secretariat?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No. There are some who we're seconding, including myself who came from INAC on a secondment basis, but we then have to engage in...when we have our staffing authorities we'll either hire them or they'll go back. There will be different arrangements in place for hiring staff.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: So in terms of mandate and values and work performance, I assume somebody is going to assess the work performance of the department. It's the commissioners who will do that, not INAC.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: With that reporting relationship through INAC, if you produce a report that INAC doesn't like, do you still get to put the report to Parliament without INAC changing it?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: For reporting to Parliament, again, it's through the minister.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: So the minister will have some influence on the report.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: What about the survivors' input into selection of commissioners. I guess what I'm hearing you say is--

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: I don't know.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: So we would again need to have people contact Justice Yacabucci.

    How about the selection process for the Indian residential school survivors committee. It says here “over the course of the next few months the secretariat will conclude the selection process”, so I assume the selection process is already under way.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Have some members already been selected?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes. There was a process where all the parties to the settlement agreement have met and have come up with a list of nine or ten names. There needs to be ten in total, and the federal government will appoint those names after consulting with the Assembly of First Nations.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: I'm sorry. Who is it that's looking at these names right now?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: All of the parties have selected the names.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: All of the parties. When you're saying “all of the parties” who are all of the parties.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The parties to the settlement agreement. Do you want me to list them?

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Yes.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The Assembly of First Nations, Inuit Tapirisat, the churches and representatives for the survivors.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: They meet and they review this list and they make recommendations that the government will then decide on as to whether they will accept those recommendations.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: After consulting with the Assembly of First Nations.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: After consulting with the Assembly of First Nations. So right now, if people wanted to be part of that Indian residential school survivor committee, because it seems to me that if again, and we talked about cultural appropriateness, that this body should have a significant role in advising the commissioners and the secretariat. So if people are interested in being part of that process, who do they contact?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The opportunity for selecting names has concluded, although if they're interested for participating in the future they could send their names to us, to the secretariat, they could go online and send it just in case there are vacancies in the future.

    

The Chair: We're finished there, Ms. Crowder.

    Thank you.

    We'll now go to Mr. Payne.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne (Medicine Hat, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I appreciate you coming today, Ms. Nabigon and your staff. I have a couple of questions. First of all, maybe if you could outline for us the goals of the commission and how that will promote reconciliation, and then I'll ask my next question after.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The goal at the TRC is to lay the foundation for reconciliation. I doubt reconciliation will have been achieved within the short five-year mandate that will be in existence. Reconciliation will be long-term and an ongoing process, but as I mentioned at the end of the five year period for our mandate we hope that we'll have heard from all former students or as many former students as we possibly can and that people will have listened, that other Canadians will have listened and that through that process of hearing, storytelling and listening, people actively listening and hearing what went on at residential schools and about the legacy that resulted in those residential schools, that there'll be a beginning of reconciliation.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne: Okay, thank you.

    Just in terms of the Canadian people hearing that, is there a process that you intend to have the Commission go through to get that information out to Canadians so that they will understand what was going on in the past history?

À  (1035)  

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes. Hopefully, everybody that possibly can fit into the seven national events will participate.

    They'll be a report, that someone mentioned already. At the end of two years, we'll have to do a report that will make recommendations to the parties.

    In addition to the seven national events, we'll have community events, where we're hoping that those aren't at aboriginal communities, but that neighbouring communities will participate in those activities, as well, and people will start to engage and listen to each other. The truth will be told and through that, I hope, we'll achieve reconciliation.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne: Okay, thank you.

    That actually leads me to the next question.

    In terms of the seven events, have those been determined where those locations are going to be at this point?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No. We've been working on the framework for holding the events, but we're holding off on setting a date and a location until we have a chaired commission in place.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne: Okay.

    Just in terms of the overall events and the funding, I believe it was $60 million for this?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne: I guess my next question is: is there going to be sufficient funding to hold these events, as well as attending other communities?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Again, whether or not we have sufficient funding, I think that'll have to be assessed once the new commission is in place. because of that fact that by that point, if, indeed, it takes until June, we'll have lost a year.

    

Mr. LaVar Payne: Okay, thank you.

    Do you have any?

    

Mr. John Duncan: Yes.

    Just to follow up on that, the way I view this, you haven't actually lost a year because during this timeframe you've had a lot of opportunity, as an administration, to set a lot of things in place. For example, you've got your survivors committee virtually picked, you've set up your offices, you went through a whole list of things that you've accomplished in your presentation.

    My question really is: it is still conceivable, is it not, that the five-year timeframe is quite possibly enough time to do the job?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes. If we're told to do it within the existing mandate and the existing funding, we'll do it.

    There's a couple of things there, one related to money, and the fact that we'll have to keep the walls up for an extra year, and there's overhead, rent, salaries for our employees, that kind of thing, but also the fact that, under the Settlement Agreement, survivors were provided with a five-year mandate in which to tell their stories. That's something that will also have to be assessed. As people have mentioned, survivors are still waiting, they're still waiting for things to begin. We've done outreach to the extent that we can, but they're waiting to hear from commissioners. We'll have to make an assessment as to whether the expectation is that we'll continue for five years, starting from the date of the new commission.

    

Mr. John Duncan: Do I have more time?

    In your statement today, you reference, say, on page 3, the final report that the commission will produce, and we heard from Mr. Murphy about the two-year report, which is quite separate and apart.

    Will there be interim reports leading up to your final report?

   

 Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes. Actually, under the Settlement Agreement, there is only a requirement for an interim report at the two-year mark. I would expect that the commission will want to have some sort of final report, but the Settlement Agreement only requires an interim report.

    

Mr. John Duncan: On these hearings, they're described as being “safe, respectful” and held in a “culturally appropriate manner”, they can be done “one-on-one...in a written statement or in a group setting”. Are those publicly accessible in any way?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Just to be clear, it's not a criminal tribunal, and as such we won't be doing hearings. What I was referring to was the statement gatherings, the opportunities for survivors to tell their stories, and as part of that, for other Canadians to hear them. It will be entirely up to the survivor, the individual survivor.

    I've been to gatherings of 500 survivors where there's no end of survivors who'd like to get up to tell their stories. They want people to know what happened to them. Those opportunities will exist through community events and national events. Other survivors will be telling their stories for the first time. We want to provide them with all the privacy that they need. It could be the survivor and a statement taker. We'll have an opportunity for them to do it in writing without anybody present. They could just mail it in to us if they're not comfortable with having somebody present.

À  (1040)  

    

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

[Français]

    Pour le deuxième tour, nous nous limiterons à trois minutes et nous débutons avec M. Murphy.

[English]

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Thank you very much. I'll speak very quickly.

    It seems to me that a lot of the issue of delay really has to do with the commissioners' named. It might have something to do with severance or their wanting to stay on longer. The concern's not germane to your job, but you did say that they would be useful in terms of overlap or transition. You've said in a response to Mr. Duncan's question, in part--it might have been Mr. Payne's question--if it takes until June to get new commissioners. Are you anticipating, has there been discussion between you and Minister Strahl or officials at INAC of appointments of new commissioners before June?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: No, I'm being optimistic.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Okay. I'm sorry to hang on your words but it's pretty much all we have, and I appreciate it, I think you said that you would reasonably anticipate the work to take five years from the appointment of the new commissioners.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: All right. If you are told to do it, we will, which is to do within the five years from June 1, which reminds me of somebody being asked to pour a foundation in the pouring rain: if you tell us to do it, we will, but we were very clear that it should be five years from the appointment of the commissioners.

    My final questions have to do with the accountability that Ms. Crowder was talking about. In the absence of a chief commissioner since October and the two commissioners on their way out, essentially a dysfunctional commission, is the secretariat reporting directly to the minister? How many discussions have you had directly with Minister Strahl? It would seem to me that a minister who has a dysfunctional commission might want to check in with the secretariat, with you in particular, and say, “How's it going? What can we do?” This is the system of ministerial responsibility we have in this country, so please tell me that he's met with you on various occasions to see what can be done to expedite the lacune that exists here.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Minister Strahl has actually been very respectful of the need for independence. The secretariat has been fine. We've been talking with the department as need be. Caroline Davis, who reported before me, has been very, very helpful in providing us with whatever support we need in getting up and running. No, I haven't had discussions with Minister Strahl, but nor have I really felt the need to. I have no doubt that if I did, he would take my call. We've dealt with the department, we have not dealt with Minister Strahl.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: In short, you're really not reporting to anyone.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The commissioners are still there. To be honest, no, I don't have a reporting relationship with the commissioners.

    

Mr. Brian Murphy: Okay.

    

The Chair: Now we'll go to Mr. Rickford.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford:

    First of all, thank you, Mr. Chair, and to the witnesses for coming here today.

    I have one point and one question.

    I want to echo the sentiments of my colleagues on the locations. You've invited us to make some recommendations, but certainly I hope that you'll be listening to survivors wishes.

    I have at least six qualified Indian residential schools in my riding, which is 321,000 square kilometres. Twenty-five of those communities have no access by road and a number of the survivors live in those community.

    I think that helps us focus on that and so I'm hoping we're not talking about a Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg—well, Winnipeg perhaps—sort of national tour, and I'll put my pitch in for Kenora, certainly. That has to be kept in mind.

    I just did a cursory view and I have a question. Is there support integrated into the commission's mandate? When we went from the alternative dispute resolution process into the IAP we started to see that there were some claims for student-on-student abuse. I'm concerned, and I want to bring it forth to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that we don't want this to be any more divisive. There's funding available with Health Canada's support in the Aboriginal Healing Foundation . I realize they're separate entities, but in my mind we should be thinking about this all together because there's going to be things that are revealed by folks and they're going to need the support. And that's just one example of something that's emerging under the new IAP that's particularly difficult.

À  (1045)  

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, and we are working closely with Health Canada, the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and the Assembly of First Nations to make sure that those supports are in place.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: Okay.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: There is a strategy being developed, a health support strategy.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: Who is participating in that discussion?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: The parties to the settlement agreement. The secretariat is involved, there's survivors at the table, and I would expect that the survivor committee, when it's up and running, will be very interested in that issue as well.

    Again, doing limited outreach, I'm actually going to Sioux Lookout tomorrow to meet with a group of survivors.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: That's a great location for one of your national events.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, I'm sure they'll tell me that too.

    The visit is to get their feedback and hear what it is that they want us to do in that regard. If there's not enough supports we'll be talking to Health Canada. It's an extremely important part of the whole process to make sure that the health supports are in place.

    

Mr. Greg Rickford: Thank you.

    

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

[Français]

    Maintenant nous passon au Bloc. Monsieur Lemay, trois minutes.

    

M. Marc Lemay: Madame, avez-vous vu le rapport de rendement du 31 mars 2008? Si vous, l'avez lu, je vais vous rappeler la page 15. Cette page est en français, en anglais je ne l'ai pas. « Résolution des questions des pensionnats indiens Canada est responsable d'administrer le processus d'évaluation indépendant [... attention «[...] et de mettre en oeuvre la Commission de vérité et de réconciliation des pensionnats indiens ». Si je le mets en oeuvre, je le supervise. Vous me suivez, jusque là ça va? Parfait. Alors, si quelqu'un ne fait pas son travail, il faudra y voir.

    J'ai une question pour vous. Quel est le rôle de l'honorable — permettez-moi de dire l'honorable Frank Iacobucci parce quand on a siégé à la Cour Suprême on mérite ce titre, c'est un très bon juge —Frank Iacobucci aujourd'hui en cet extraordinaire jour du 12 février dans la désignation des nouveaux commissaires?

[English]

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Justice Iacobucci was appointed by the parties to chair a process for finding a resolution after Justice Harry LaForme quit as the chair. He is now tasked with chairing the process that will replace both the chair and the two commissioners who have resigned as of June 1.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Je vais vous poser une question difficile. Si vous aviez une attente à exprimer à l'égard de notre comité, qu'attendez-vous de nous, comment pouvons-nous vous aider dans ce processus pour que ça aille plus vite, mieux? Y a-t-il quelque chose qu'on peut faire ici pour vous aider?

[English]

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Thank you for that offer. Again, we're waiting anxiously for a new commission to be appointed and maybe that's a question you could ask the new commission when they're on board. We're continuing to do whatever we can to get ready for that new commission. I appreciate the offer.

[Français]

    

M. Marc Lemay: Alors on dira aux conservateurs de se dépêcher. Ceci n'est pas votre travail, c'est le nôtre. On parlera au ministre lorsqu'il viendra. Comptez sur nous.

À  (1050)  

    

Le président: Merci, monsieur Lemay.

[English]

    Now, Mr. Albrecht, for three minutes.

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to follow up a bit on this problem that we seem to have about the seven national events and I think it's important that we read in context what has been said. The seven national events are to promote awareness. There will be in addition to that community events as they're requested. So I think it's important to keep that in perspective for the public record and that every person who has been affected will have the opportunity to tell their story in their community.

    The point I want to come back to is a point that was raised by Mr. Duncan regarding the possibility of people sharing their experiences in a safe, respectful, culturally sensitive way, private one on one or public discussion. You mentioned that one of the possibilities might be sharing in a group of up to 500 people. Are there any restrictions placed on those who will be sharing their stories in terms of specifically naming people who might not have the possibility to defend themselves. Possibly they're deceased. Possibly they're in another area of the country. That's one of my concerns and you probably have something in place for that but I'd like to hear you address that.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Yes, thank you. To clarify, what I had said was that I've heard survivors talk in front of gatherings of 500. The national events, we hope to have thousands and just on that point, we'll make sure that people who are speaking, who are telling their stories will be prepared in advance. The settlement agreement does say that people cannot be named. I can't remember exactly what it says but--

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: Allegations cannot be raised without--

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Allegations, right, so we're making sure that we've got a strategy. It might be hard to avoid 100% but we're doing everything we can to make sure that the people at all of our gatherings are aware that they can't speak about people who they may be accusing of crimes or whatever.

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: Thank you very much.

    

The Chair: You still have another minute, if you wish.

    

Mr. Harold Albrecht: One of my colleagues might want to use it.

    

The Chair: Anybody? Okay. Then we'll got to Ms. Crowder. Three minutes.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Mr. Chair, I want to come back again, to make sure I'm understanding this. You've indicated that the agreement says that there's an interim report which is the two-year report but there is no final report?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Right, not according to the settlement agreement.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: Not according to the settlement .So there will be no final reporting out on results, events, accounting for how public money was spent, in a final report, other than the normal budget cycle?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: I would expect that there would be.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: But there's no requirement.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: I'm not sure. There's no requirement but I can't imagine that the commissioners won't want to present a final report.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: It's pretty shocking, actually. I'm surprised. I know this isn't your responsibility but I just want to be on record saying how surprising it is that you have something that has a significant mandate with significant public funds attached to it hoping to achieve significant results and there's no final reporting process. That's pretty appalling so I'm hoping that the commissioners will see fit to take that responsibility on to do that.

    In terms of the independence in the relationship with the department, I think part of the concern--this has to do with trust-building--is that people were hoping to see the secretariat operate quite independently, and I respect the fact that there is a need to get information from the department but it sounds like between staff coming over from Indian and Northern Affairs, and in the absence of having any kind of other reporting relationship, I think there are some optics around the independence of the secretariat.

    So my question to you is twofold. One, how are you going to regenerate that trust in the public and in the survivors that your secretariat is independent and operating at arms length, and two, what are you going to do about the damage control? Could you tell me what your plans are to address those issues?

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: With regard to the independence of the secretariat, at this point, because we are in a transition stage and we don't have our money, our own funding yet, we depend on the department for corporate services, but it's very much at a working technical level. They don't interfere at all in our policies or in the work that we're doing to move forward. They're providing corporate services such as procurement services and ITAR services, but only, hopefully, until we get our money on April 1st.

    So the issue of independence really hasn't come up, I don't think.

À  (1055)  

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: I think there are some optics around it, though, and I think that's the piece that you're going to have to deal with because just saying, “Trust me, we're independent”, isn't going to work for people.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: Right, but after April 1st we'll have cut that relationship and we'll be getting our corporate services elsewhere.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: And what about the--

    

The Chair: That's it, I'm sorry, Ms. Crowder.

    We're going to go back to Mr. Payne for one minute and we'll finish up this round.

    Mr. Payne.

[Français]

    

M. LaVar Payne: Merci monsieur le président.

[English]

    You did talk about the secretariat and I'd just like to kind of ask you a question around how far along are you in completing the work on the secretariat and when that might be completed.

    

Mrs. Aideen Nabigon: A lot of the work that we've been doing, as you can imagine, over the past five or six months that I've been there is just standing up the secretariat as a federal government department. We had to get our Treasury Board submission done and approved. We've done an organization chart so that we can start hiring staff--it's currently being approved by the Public Service Commission--and we've entered into an MOU with the Canadian Human Rights Commission to provide us with corporate services after April 1st.

    At this point, really, we're getting to that point where we've got a strong foundation in place for the secretariat as a functional department to support the commission when it comes on board.

    As I mentioned, we've been developing the policies and the initiatives for moving forward on the mandate activities to the extent that we can, implementing Schedule “N”, but being careful not to commit a future chair to a direction that he or she may not want to go in.

    

The Chair: That will conclude it.

[Français]

    Merci madame Nabigon. Nous avons apprécié votre présentation.

[English]

    Thank you to all members as well. You don't need to hear this from me, but I thought all of the questions today were thoughtful and precise and I think very well done.

    There's just one item of follow up. Before we adjourn here, as a follow up to our last meeting the question came out in regards to the circulation of CDs for the notices of appointment that you will be circulated on automatically. This can be done on request now.

    You should be reminded that the Standing Orders provide 30 sitting days for the time to consider those questions, but they will and can be circulated to you in accordance with the Standing Orders on request. So we'll get those out to you and that was the one item that we had left over from the last meeting.

    Madam Crowder.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: This room is ridiculously small.

    

The Chair: I agree.

    

Ms. Jean Crowder: I really urge us to find a room that accommodates the staff and witnesses and their staff and other people who want to sit in.

    

The Chair: Yes, there's no question. Right now, you may know, the Promenade Building is being renovated. So we are under some constraints that way, but I mentioned that to the clerk. We'll endeavour to make sure that we have proper quarters for our meetings.

    Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. The meeting is adjourned.